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Group 2 Anglins and Anglims

Contents

Summary of Participants

All of the people in Group 2 are obviously closely related. Of the 17 participants who fall within Group 2, we have:

Summary of Findings

Recruiting Goals

Test Results for Markers 1 - 37

Mutations from the ancestral haplotype are shown in bold type. Participants with no mutations indicated have the ancestral haplotype.

    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37  
    DYS Numbers  
ID Ancestor 3
9
3
3
9
0
1
9
*
3
9
1
3
8
5
a
3
8
5
b
4
2
6
3
8
8
4
3
9
3
8
9
i
3
9
2
3
8
9
i
i
4
5
8
4
5
9
a
4
5
9
b
4
5
5
4
5
4
4
4
7
4
3
7
4
4
8
4
4
9
4
6
4
a
4
6
4
b
4
6
4
c
4
6
4
d
4
6
0
G
A
T
A
H
4
Y
C
A
II
a
Y
C
A
II
b
4
5
6
6
0
7
5
7
6
5
7
0
C
D
Y
a
C
D
Y
b
4
4
2
4
3
8
More Markers
Group 2
Citizens of Ireland; descendants of 19th and 20th century immigrants from Ireland to England, Canada, and the United States;
and descendants of William Anglin of Hanover Co., VA; b. abt 1732; d. 1803, Caswell Co., NC
SNP-tested haplogroup R1b1b2a1a2f (R-L21)
A6 (Wm) John 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 37 12 12
A8 (Wm) John 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 37 12 12  
A13 (Wm)Aaron 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 37 12 12  
A72 (Wm)Aaron 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16           12 12
A2 (Wm) John 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 17 15 18 17 37 37 12 12  
A57 (Wm)Drury 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 37 12 12  
A11 (Wm) Wm 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 37 12 12  
A31 (Wm) John 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29                                                    
A29 Anglin 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 37 12 12  
A61 Anglim 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 37 12 12  
A74 Anglim 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 16 37 37 12 12
A42 Edward 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 23 23 16 15 18 17 37 37 12 12
A22 Samuel 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 37 12 12  
A58 Thomas 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 29 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 37 12 12
A45 Anglim 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 19 17 37 37 12 12  
A70 Anglin 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 19 17 37 37 12 12  
A17 Robert 13 23 15 10 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 19 17 37 37 12 12  
A36 Jeremiah 13 23 15 10 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 37 12 12  
A26 John 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 38 38 12 12  
A54 James 13 23 15 11 11 11 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 20 28 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 36 36 12 12  
                                                                               

Test Results for Markers 38 - 111

    38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 103 108 109 110 111
    DYS Numbers
ID Ancestor 5
3
1
5
7
8
3
9
5
S
1
a
3
9
5
S
1
b
5
9
0
5
3
7
6
4
1
4
7
2
4
0
6
S
1
5
1
1
4
2
5
4
1
3
a
4
1
3
b
5
5
7
5
9
4
4
3
6
4
9
0
5
3
4
4
5
0
4
4
4
4
8
1
5
2
0
4
4
6
6
1
7
5
6
8
4
8
7
5
7
2
6
4
0
4
9
2
5
6
5
7
1
0
4
8
5
6
3
2
4
9
5
5
4
0
7
1
4
7
1
6
7
1
7
5
0
5
5
5
6
5
4
9
5
8
9
5
2
2
4
9
4
5
3
3
6
3
6
5
7
5
6
3
8
4
6
2
4
5
2
4
4
5
Y
-
G
A
T
A
-
A
1
0
4
6
3
4
4
1
Y
Y
-
G
G
A
A
T
-
1
B
0
7
5
2
5
7
1
2
5
9
3
6
5
0
5
3
2
7
1
5
5
0
4
5
1
3
5
6
1
5
5
2
7
2
6
6
3
5
5
8
7
6
4
3
4
9
7
5
1
0
4
3
4
4
6
1
4
3
5
Group 2
A42 Edward 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 11 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 33 15 9 16 12 25 27 19 12 11 12 12 11 9 12 12 10 11 11 31 12 15 24 13 10 10 19 15 20 13 23 19 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11
A74 Anglim 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 11 23 19 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 33 15 9 16 12 25 27 19 12 11 13 12 11 9 12 12 10 11 11 31 12 15 24 13 10 10 18 15 18 13 23 19 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11
A58 Thomas 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 15 8 11 24 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 33 15 9 16 12 25 27 19 12 11 14 12 11 9 13 12 10 11 11 31 12 14 24 13 10 10 19 15 20 13 24 19 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11
A6 Wm>John 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 34 15 9 16 12 25 27 19 12 11 13 12 11 9 12 12 10 11 11 31 12 15 24 13 10 10 19 15 20 13 23 19 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11
A72 Wm>Aaron                                       11     13                                                   11 31 12 15 24 13 10                       23           12  
                                                                                                                                                       


Recombinant Loss of Heterozygosity and Why It Matters to Group 2

The results chart for Group 2 shows an interesting doubling phenomenon which can affect multicopy markers. The two copies of DYS 385 (a and b) both have values of 11 in Group 2, while most people in the R1b-L21 haplogroup (which Group 2 belongs to) have an 11 and a 14. The two copies of DYS 459 (a and b) both have values of 9, while most people in this haplogroup have a 9 and a 10. The four copies of DYS 464 ( a, b, c, and d) have values of 16, 16, 17, and 17, while most people in this haplogroup have values of 15, 15, 17, and 17. In Group 2, the two copies of CDY (a and b) are also doubled. In fact, the only multicopy marker which is not doubled in Group 2's ancestral haplotype is YCAII (a and b). This is the only multicopy marker for which Group 2's ancestral haplotype has the same values as most people in the R1b-L21 haplogroup, i.e. 19 and 23.

These multicopy markers are in areas where the DNA is folded over in a sort of hairpin shape in such a way that the other copies of the markers are just opposite. When that happens, one value of a multicopy marker can just overwrite the other one. For instance, the 11 at one copy of DYS 385 can just overwrite the 14 with an 11, giving values of 11 and 11, instead of 11 and 14, as it was just before this mutation. It is important to know that, because when you are trying to figure out how closely two people are related, you consider the genetic distance between them; in other words, how different their haplotypes are. Most mutations are just one-step differences in the number of repeats; for example, when the DNA is copied in reproduction, 15 repeats at a marker in the father could become either 14 or 16 repeats in the son. Rarely there can be two-step changes in one mutation, and once in a blue moon there might be a three-step change in one mutation. So as things are, you are usually right in thinking that any change between two people is the results of a series of one-step mutations.

But with the doubling phenomenon we talked about above, which is called recombinant loss of heterozygosity (abbreviated as recLOH), that overwriting occurred in one mutation, so in calculating the genetic distance between you and another person, where you have 11-11 at DYS 385 a and b, and the other person has 11-14, you would count that as a genetic distance of 1, not 3. If you didn't know that the 11-11 at DYS 385 a and b was a recLOH, you might think you weren't closely related to a person, when in fact you were.

But there's more. If multicopy markers are on the same palindrome (and you would have to look at a map of the palindromic areas of the Y-chromosome, or someone would have to tell you, in order for you to know that), then all of the multicopy markers on the same palindrome can be doubled in one mutation. And I can tell you that DYS 459, DYS 464, and DYS CDY are all on the same palindrome (P1), and it is likely that they all were doubled at the same time, as one mutation. You would therefore count all of the differences between you and the other person at those markers as a genetic distance of 1. Again, if you didn't know how recLOH's behave, you wouldn't think you were related to that person at all.

The multicopy marker DYS 385 (a and b) is on a different palindrome from the one we just mentioned, so you would count that doubling as another single-step mutation.

Before the summer of 2010, we only had results for 12 markers for A42, and he matched the ancestral hapltype exactly. But this summer he upgraded to 67 markers, and we saw another recLOH! Where everyone else in Group 2 had 19 and 23 at DYS YCAII a and b, just as most of the millions of people in the same haplogroup do, A42 23 and 23. And because we know about recLOH's, we know there's only a genetic difference of 1 as a result of that mutation, and not a genetic distance of 4, as we would think if we didn't know it was a recLOH.

I have no idea what makes Group 2 so prone to recLOH's, but I haven't pointed them all out yet. Most of the people in Group 2 have 37 and 37 at DYS CDY a and b, but A26 has 38 and 38 and A54 has 36 and 36 at that marker, and since their respective recLOH's count as single-step mutations, A26 and A54 are each only a genetic distance of 1 from the ancestral haplotype for Group 2.

Irish Origins

Our participants whose place of origin in Ireland is known are from
Macroom (A36), Clonakilty (A29), Bandon (A17 and A22), Aherla (A58) and Glanmire (A26). Glanmire is on the northeastern edge of Cork City.

Aidan Anglin was kind enough to furnish me with very fine maps.
To see County Cork in the context of all of the other counties of Ireland, see this map.

The A17, A22, and A36 Dilemma

The recent results on A58 require the revision of this section, and I'm working on it, so stayed tuned.

A17 and A22 have believed that their respective earliest known ancestors were brothers, and for good reason. Robert was born in Bandon in County Cork in 1775, and Samuel was born there in 1780. Both families were Protestant, which certainly does not prove anything, but it does lend a comforting consistency to the idea. And there were not any records to suggest the contrary. Unfortunately, however, Irish records for the time in question are very scarce, so the absence of contrary records has little, if any, probative value.

It is ironic that when Group 2 has so few mutations, we should find three of them in the only two people outside of the colonial American group who believed their earliest known ancestors were brothers, and even more ironic that these two have none of their mutations in common, but there we have it. The fact that A17 and A22 have none of their mutations in common is not necessarily inconsistent, however, with the belief that Robert and Samuel were brothers.

Since A17 and A22 have no mutations in common, we know that their most recent common ancestor had the ancestral values and not any of these mutations. But we have no idea, just looking at these 2 sets of results, which generations below the most recent common ancestor these mutations occurred in.

Then along comes A36, whose test results show a mutation in common with A17, AND the mutation is at DYS 391, which is not a fast marker. The chance that two people in the group could have parallel mutations at that marker, rather than having inherited the mutation from a common ancestor, is not impossible, but is improbable, especially in so few generations.

If A17's and A22's earliest known ancestors were indeed brothers, and if all of A17's immigrant ancestor's children were born in Canada, and if A17 and A36 inherited their mutation at DYS 391 from a common ancestor, then A36 would have to be descended from A17's earliest known ancestor, Robert. Faced with these unlikely scenarios, it seems much likelier that A17 and A22 have more generations between themselves and their most recent common ancestor than they have believed. But lots of unlikely things happen, and what really counts is what actually happened, not what was most likely to have happened. It would be nice, therefore, to have more participants whose families came from Bandon to see if we can get any better an idea as to when the mutation at DYS 391 occurred, and thereby a better idea of the family tree.



If A17's Robert and A22's Samuel were indeed brothers, then A17 and A22 are 4th cousins once removed.



Group 2's Colonial American Branch

Because results from descendants of two different sons of William (John and Aaron) match exactly, we know that William had the same haplotype as A6 and A8 (descended from John) and A13 (descended from Aaron). Having established the ancestral haplotype, we have charted any mutations or differences from that haplotype in bold type in the Test Results Chart. Below is a chart showing the lines of each of our participants descended from William.


We know the haplotypes of each person indicated in dark blue. Testing of more participants would be required to establish the haplotypes of the persons indicated in lighter blue. Since only 12 markers have been tested for A31, we only know that his haplotype is ancestral for the first 12 markers, so his lineage in indicated in gray. If would be helpful if he would upgrade to 36 markers. The mutations are indicated in red.

If we were to establish where the mutations occurred, we would know that the relatives with that mutation, whose exact lineage was unknown, would be descended from the earliest ancestor with the mutation. A2's most remote ancestor whose haplotype is unknown is Andrew. We can find Andrew's haplotype by testing a descendant of a different son of Andrew, i.e. by testing a descendant of a brother of A2's grandfather John.

Likewise, in A11's line, William, Jr. is his most remote ancestor whose haplotype is unknown. We could find William's haplotype by testing a descendant of a different son of William Jr.'s than A11's great great grandfather John. If William didn't have the 18 at DYS 458, then we would want to move down one more generation and test a different son of John than A11's great grandfather Thaddeus.

Obviously, this tree is nice and leafy for the descendants of William's son John, but pitifully scraggly for the descendants of William's other sons. If our tree could branch out a little better for those lines, we might find some more mutations.


Decendants of William Anglin of Virginia & Caswell County, North Carolina

A8 and A6 are half 5th cousins.
A8 and A2 are half 4th cousins once removed.
A6 and A2 are 3rd cousins once removed.
A11 is a 5th cousin to A2 and a 5th cousin once removed to A6 and A8.
A13 is a 5th cousin to A2 and A11, and a 5th cousin once removed to A6 and A8.
A31 is a 3rd cousin once removed to A8, a half 4th cousin twice removed to A2,
a half 5th cousin once removed to A6, a 5th cousin twice removed to A11 and A13.

The charts below show only the direct lines of the participants in Group 2.